Curse

Jetdoc · May 30, 2006, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

Youre also forgetting though that the 12v12 battles serve the sole purpose of trying to get all the farmers into pvp.

I disagree - the farmers generally don't want to waste their time on a 12v12 match when they have a build they've used 1,000 times against trolls/grawl/etc. that they know will work.

It's trying to get the hardcore PvEers (like myself) into PvP by appealing to their basic desires:

- Monetary reward for completion;
- Use of pirmarily PvE skills in a PvP arena (e.g. minions);
- Mass chaos to make the PvP experience more PuG-like/winnable.

Random arenas fail to do this because of the very small nature (4v4). TA, HA and GvG generally involves some sort of pre-selection that adds a bit too much order for the standard PvEer's liking.

In the end, I don't know whether or not it will work. Many people claim that it has failed, but then again I see a ton of "LF a Guild that will help me in PvP" messages posted out there, which I assume are from hardcore PvEers that are now becoming interested in PvP because of Factions.

Kern Wolf · May 30, 2006, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overnite

Ever seen a Whammo who joins a RA game, says that he is wielding a "Victo's Bulwark" and "Victo's Somethingelse" then gets spiked in a matter of seconds when the game starts ? I see them all the time and it says something about PvE players IMHO.

And what's even funnier, the guy doesn't even know that he is making an idiot of himself because for every green item there's a PvP item with the same or better stats (or you can make it using unlocked mods).

This, IMO, is a very bad blanket statement. You can't condemn the whole PVE community because of a few Whammos. Should PvE players say the same thing about PvP players due to the "uber elitist PvP ranked player" who shows up in PvE and displays the worst attitude in the game?

TomD22 · May 30, 2006, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dove_Song

I'd like to open disscussion on this topic.

okay so in another (very lame) off topic thread this came up in a few posts (if you read between the lines).

It seems that certain PvP players view the GW player base as:

PvE players - worthless unless they are need to get me through the missions. PvE is for sissies.

Aliance Batt: - pvP for PvE players...see above

PvP in RA - lowest echeolon of PvP the PREschool of PvP no SERIOUS PvP happens here. Any PvP build that is used here is weak and just silly it's not REAL PvP.

PvP in TA - almost as above yet it's okay if you do it with guild mates when you are bored.

HoH- the upper echelon of PvP hottly debated as the BEST pVPer's...unless your a GVG 'er (see below)

GvG- the ONLY TRUE PvP (since when did PvP mean Capture the flag I'll never know).....often knock heads with the HoH as to who has the biggest $%#.....

now I always saw all of these types of the game as a field unto itself with varying skills needed in each one....a...pick your poison....sort of approach...

PvP is Player versus player after all?

and guild versus guild...well that's a whole horse of a differnt color isn't it. I mean isn't it like comparing American football and Soccer....they have similar skills needed to play...but it's not the same sport.

but I can see that this is not the common view....

Disscuss?

I'd say you've summed things up quite nicely there. As someone who plays mainly GvG, with occasional HA if i get a group with people on my FL i know will win halls, what you've written there is pretty much my view of PvP.

One small exception might be that although at the moment Alliance Battles are basically PvP for PvE-ers, with a few improvements they could become as good and competitive as GvG. At the moment it's 8 pve wammo's, 1 pve MM and a premade E/R vs the same on the opposing team, pretty much every time.

Sanji · May 30, 2006, 03:06 PM // 15:06

There is no shortage of rotten Guild Wars players with rancid attitudes. They just manifest differently as a result of the playstyle they are in.

For every PvP player that is a loudmouth lout who feels that he is a better person because he has top ranked Guild there are just as many noisy jerkwad PvE players who think they're better than other people because they has a full storage with a bajillion ectos and equipped with the finest prestige armor and weapons. For every PvP player that thinks he's awesome just because he can play whatever flavor of the month in HoH enough to get a rank emote there is a PvE player who think they are awesome because they are able to play a l33t forum build to beat up poorly scripted monsters.

It's the same crap, just in slightly different packaging.

Dove_Song · May 30, 2006, 03:50 PM // 15:50

I don;t want this to degenerate into a PvE vs PvP thread: we got a ton of those already.

this is a PvP vs PvP thread: LOL

what I am saying is, there seems to be a division even amongst the PvPer's numbers too...RA + HA being apparently the lowest cast.

I don't agree with the statements in my post (those are just the general trend I have seen)....so for those of you who said you agreeed with that list I made...you are the problem children I am talking about.

yes yes we know there is a problem..HOW about some solutions people? Anyone?
Anyone?

Flip99 · May 30, 2006, 04:11 PM // 16:11

I think that GW is an Excellent game which suffers from the diversity of its player base. Even though GW is a sword & sorcery medieval fantasy genre game environment, it seems to me that most PvP players really have no interest in this particular genre. Seems as if most would be just as happy playing a game in which they could fly spaceships, or drive giant robots around shooting at each other.

I also see many PvE players in-game who obviously have no interest in sword & sorcery fantasy. They refer to their character as "Toons", and they play the game as if they were playing Donkey-Kong or Pacman.

Then we have the Role-Players who get lost in the shuffle and leave GW for greener pastures.

Unless GW goes to a monthly fee to play and separates player-types by servers/districts.... the Chaos here will only get worse.

Stabber · May 30, 2006, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dove_Song

PvE players - worthless unless they are need to get me through the missions. PvE is for sissies.

I wouldn't phrase it in those terms, but the sentiment is genuine and undeniable. PvE teaches you nothing beyond how to exploit predictable AI weaknesses. I find it very hard to respect the skills of a PvE-only player. This is not to say that PvP doesn't have its good share of truly worthless players, but on the whole you run into the best Guild Wars players in PvP. Mainly in TA and GvG.

Kakumei · May 30, 2006, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flip99

I think that GW is an Excellent game which suffers from the diversity of its player base. Even though GW is a sword & sorcery medieval fantasy genre game environment, it seems to me that most PvP players really have no interest in this particular genre. Seems as if most would be just as happy playing a game in which they could fly spaceships, or drive giant robots around shooting at each other.

I also see many PvE players in-game who obviously have no interest in sword & sorcery fantasy. They refer to their character as "Toons", and they play the game as if they were playing Donkey-Kong or Pacman.

Then we have the Role-Players who get lost in the shuffle and leave GW for greener pastures.

Unless GW goes to a monthly fee to play and separates player-types by servers/districts.... the Chaos here will only get worse.

Overdramatization. There is no "chaos". People, on the whole, are satisfied with how things are, at least as far as pvp vs pve goes--you don't see pve players coming into RA, announcing "f all u pvpers" and leaving, and nor do you see pvp players coming into Vizunah, announcing "lol pve noobs" and leaving. More often than not, ingame, the two "sides" will leave each other alone.

Sanji · May 30, 2006, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Ah, sorry Dove, I misunderstood the intent of your post.

There is no solution. Some people will always be snarky when it comes to the top levels of play, but that's something you have to deal with in this sort of game. Whether it be a FPS, Fighting Game, or RTS.

However, that doesn't invalidate what you enjoy and you shouldn't let it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flip99

Unless GW goes to a monthly fee to play and separates player-types by servers/districts.... the Chaos here will only get worse.

What's the difference between a 13 year old who plays World of Warcraft and a 13 year old who plays Guild Wars?

The 13 year old who plays Guild Wars couldn't get his mom to spring for a monthy fee.

Seriously, though, while I do not have quite an extensive Pay to Play history (World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy XI being the only two I've played) as others, I've seen absolutely nothing that supports that an online community is that improved in the slightest with the addition of a monthly fee.

shadowfell · May 30, 2006, 05:57 PM // 17:57

I was in fort aspenwood, yesterday, doing alliance battles for the mandatory 10k grind.....and I actually saw people coming in and out saying. "pve noobs, losers, hahah, if it wasn't for us, you wouldn't have a game to play"

and then this... truly priceless...

"I want only other r6+ people to press enter battle the same time as me! will anyone r6+ ONLY, press button same time as me!!!!!!eleven!!!"

but yes.. there is some hardcore snobbery going on in this game. it really gives you a good idea that the base of the players are in high school or younger.

Mtank325 · May 30, 2006, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTSFirebat

Really its the rage/grief quiters who make the place a problem. For example:

Luna Silverwood has joined the game
Super Warrior has joined the game
I R leet has joined the game
Spellbreaker has joined the game

(In local chat) I R leet: "oh S*** dudes, we don't have a monk... lol and we have a n00b touch ranger on our team as well. lol good luck winning you d***s

I R leet has left the game

Heh, spot on impression.

That's incredibly annoying although can't help but get the feeling to brag when you win in a 3v4 situation.

lyra_song · May 30, 2006, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

since when is GvG "capture the flag" ?

i consider GvG the main form of PvP in guild wars, hence the name of the game, but also becuase it's the only form where
a) you get to organise your complete team
b) you need to have tactics that exceed "let's cap at 2 mins"
c) you get rewards for winning and penalties for losing

GvG is the only form of pvp that includes penalties for a loss, making it much more tense ...

I once suggested that HoH battles subtract Fame whenever you lose, so that fame farming would be incredibly difficult, and only the truly best can show off their ranks.

Not a lot of people liked that idea. -.o

romO · May 30, 2006, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTSFirebat

Really its the rage/grief quiters who make the place a problem. For example:

Luna Silverwood has joined the game
Super Warrior has joined the game
I R leet has joined the game
Spellbreaker has joined the game

(In local chat) I R leet: "oh S*** dudes, we don't have a monk... lol and we have a n00b touch ranger on our team as well. lol good luck winning you d***s

I R leet has left the game

rofl, i know it was probably just a coincidence that you were making this name, but I R Leet is the coolest romanian you will ever meet.

Omega X · May 30, 2006, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flip99

I think that GW is an Excellent game which suffers from the diversity of its player base. Even though GW is a sword & sorcery medieval fantasy genre game environment, it seems to me that most PvP players really have no interest in this particular genre. Seems as if most would be just as happy playing a game in which they could fly spaceships, or drive giant robots around shooting at each other.

I also see many PvE players in-game who obviously have no interest in sword & sorcery fantasy. They refer to their character as "Toons", and they play the game as if they were playing Donkey-Kong or Pacman.

Then we have the Role-Players who get lost in the shuffle and leave GW for greener pastures.

Unless GW goes to a monthly fee to play and separates player-types by servers/districts.... the Chaos here will only get worse.

I'm glad that you don't make the decisions, otherwise GW would die off.

Navaros · May 30, 2006, 07:53 PM // 19:53

I agree with OP that it is very funny how many of the alleged "top Guilds" who get creamed by IWAY builds on the Underworld map of HA will go around saying that HA is not legitimate PVP. In my view HA is the tournament because it is where the most skill is required.

Ultimately, most players who try to disrespect other forms of PVP do so only because they get thrashed very badly at them due to being unskilled at them.

All of the PVP modes in Guild Wars are hard and hence should be respected, Tombs/HA most of all.

Dove_Song · May 30, 2006, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Sanji,

I have to agree with you. I have played m games and it seems that John Gabriel's Greater Internet F-wad theory seems to always prevail.

for those of you who don;t know what that is:

Normal person + anonymity+ audience = F-wad

Can we site some example of game that HAVE really brought ppl together in a positive way? And find out why and how?

Again if you're just going to post how much PvE or PvP is better than the other please post in any of the 15 other threads that have beat that horse to death....that's not what we are disscussing here.

Im looking for ideas on what would make the community better and more cohesive....

Makkert · May 30, 2006, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dove_Song

I'd like to open disscussion on this topic.

okay so in another (very lame) off topic thread this came up in a few posts (if you read between the lines).

It seems that certain PvP players view the GW player base as:

PvE players - worthless unless they are need to get me through the missions. PvE is for sissies.

Many PvP players don't see much challenge in PvE, that they see as static and bound by AI rules. However I don't think they will call a PvE player a sissy. They just enjoy different things on the GW spectrum imho.

Quote:

Alliance Batt: - pvP for PvE players...see above

I've played a nice number of AB by now. It's relaxing PvP. Relaxing in the way that the pressure is smaller then most other forms of PvP due the fact that the maps are big (you can retreat, unlike HA, RA or TA) and the battles are less controlled (no full guild teams, so cooridination less then GvG). Its great fun, and is a nice form of PvP for new PvP players to learn important points of PvP without the pressure that comes with the other forms of PvP. I understand that where the remark 'pvp for pve players' comes from, its because AB has quite a few NPC's that are key to victory (the controlpoints). However I don't agree with that sentiment, as GvG (Guild Lord, Bodyguards, etc) and HA (Ghostly Hero, Priest) also have influence of NPC's.

Quote:

PvP in RA - lowest echeolon of PvP the PREschool of PvP no SERIOUS PvP happens here. Any PvP build that is used here is weak and just silly it's not REAL PvP.

Now, I fully have to agree here. The 'R' of 'Random Arena' should stand for 'Retard'. It's not the fault of anyone that plays in RA. Nor are people stupid that play it. It's just that the way RA works it creates retarded builds. Since you can't be certain of a healer, players pack a self heal. So far, so good. But organisation is lacking completely in these teams, unless in those rare situations people will actually pick a targetcaller. My point with RA is that is selfish PvP. Players often look out only for themselves, not their team. A build like a Paladin, that absolutely wouldn't make any sense in any other pvp setting, could do ok here. It teaches players the wrong things, making them a step behind to play pvp in different settings.

Quote:

PvP in TA - almost as above yet it's okay if you do it with guild mates when you are bored.

not much wrong with TA. move along.

Quote:

HoH- the upper echelon of PvP hottly debated as the BEST pVPer's...unless your a GVG 'er (see below)

HoH teaches you some things. It is ok, altough if there are dominant FotM builds, it can get boring fast. Facing IWAY 5 out of 6 times isn't exactly exciting...but that's a matter of opinion.

Quote:

GvG- the ONLY TRUE PvP (since when did PvP mean Capture the flag I'll never know).....often knock heads with the HoH as to who has the biggest $%#.....

there are more strategies possible in GvG compared to HA, which make it, at least in my humble opinion, a bit more interesting. But opinons differ on this.

Quote:

now I always saw all of these types of the game as a field unto itself with varying skills needed in each one....a...pick your poison....sort of approach...

PvP is Player versus player after all?

partly true. There are differences for sure, but the base principles remain the same.

Now, on this rant on PvP arrogance, I'd like to add some experiences I had in PvE lately:

- going into mission, 2 of 8 ragequit immediately
- going into mission, someone leeches the mission (happend twice)
- loner's syndrom (a guy that runs of, and thinks he knows it better then the complete full party)
- joining for bonus, only ending up with mission because they don't care. they got what they wanted.

so, when you start again a thread on pvp players, think again how elegant pve players can be.

kind regards,

Makkert

Omega X · May 30, 2006, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

Many PvP players don't see much challenge in PvE, that they see as static and bound by AI rules. However I don't think they will call a PvE player a sissy. They just enjoy different things on the GW spectrum imho.

Lol, you would be surprised.

Quote:

Now, on this rant on PvP arrogance, I'd like to add some experiences I had in PvE lately:

- going into mission, 2 of 8 ragequit immediately
- going into mission, someone leeches the mission (happend twice)
- loner's syndrom (a guy that runs of, and thinks he knows it better then the complete full party)
- joining for bonus, only ending up with mission because they don't care. they got what they wanted.

so, when you start again a thread on pvp players, think again how elegant pve players can be.

kind regards,

Makkert

Those experiences of yours....

- Rage quits are pretty much universal
- leaching is a new bot tactic(or human tactic, either way you can't control it)
- loner's syndrome has been there since day one on both sides of the water
- Now that was bad luck. But usually you find a "Bonus" group for something like that. Asking about the Bonus ahead of time slims the chance of not getting it.

Sagius Truthbarron · May 30, 2006, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Wow. Somebody who still thinks there is a difference between "PvP'ers" and "PvE'ers". There isn't one. Almost everyone who plays PvP plays PvE alot aswell.

There are, of course, so many people who came from World of Warcraft see anyone who plays PvP as "the big jock that wants to PK me!!" and staunchly refuse to take part in it.

I personally haven't seen a thread made by a "PvP only person" in 10 months. I have, however, seen about 12 "PvE only people are opressed by PvP only people!" threads.

I mean, geeze, are you still that hot over things that happend 10 months ago?

I do RA, TA, HA, GvG, farming, elite missions, regular missions, and quests. I think anyone who has played this game for more than 2 months does aswell.

The people that don't like and look down on others who play a certain section of the game are a very small minority. The OP is part of a very small minority.

The Real Roy Keane · May 30, 2006, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blow Up Doll

lol so true

in my opinion: Soccer = Football = chav game

Go back to your croquet and polo.

Quote:

Ra < Ta + Alliance battles< HoH < GvG

I do agree with this though.